[16:58] * Aridd has joined #FF
[16:58] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Aridd
[16:58] <Ben|Studie> Hi Adrien!
[16:58] * Ben|Studie is now known as Ben|Study
[16:58] <Aridd> Hi!
[16:58] <Ben|Study> translated in English <G>
[16:59] <Aridd> Heh... I understand 'Studie'. ;)
[16:59] <Ben|Study> oh, good <G>
[16:59] * Ben|Study is now known as Ben|Studie
[16:59] <Ben|Studie> :P
[16:59] <Guido> I don't. <G>
[16:59] <Ben|Studie> LOL
[16:59] <Guido> I only understand holidays :P
[16:59] <Aridd> Hehe... Hi!
[16:59] <Guido> hi :)
[16:59] <Aridd> Holidays? What are those? <G>
[22:57] <BramP[away]> I just think it's stupid to believe some god created us in his image... that same god also created worms, why do we assume *we* are his image, and not those worms? why are we better than worms? it's just human arrogance to think worms are inferior <G>
[22:57] <BramP[away]> so I believe that god is a giant worm
[23:29] <Aridd> Yes, Ben. But that doesn't mean that "destiny" is going to twist things "magically" toward a certain end. That's self-contradictory. Because it would be twisting *itself*.
[23:29] <BramP[away]> twisting, like a worm
[23:29] <BramP[away]> so destiny is a worm
[23:30] <BramP[away]> aka god
[23:30] <BramP[away]> QED
[23:30] <BramP[away]> woo! I just proved the existence of god
[23:36] <Ben> So now that history is pre-ordained, why would we go to work anyway? Why not steal and kill? I can say: it must be determined already that I won't go to work today, so why even bother?
[23:37] <BramP[away]> of course it was determined you wouldn't go to work today, it's sunday :P
[23:37] <BramP[away]> and you don't have a job :P
[During a heated and very serious philosophical discussion]
[23:48] <BramP[away]> ooh! typo in Morabulu's bio
[23:49] <Ben> Evolution cannot be random if it is determined
[23:50] <BramP[away]> evolution is just random mutations, and the ones that happen to be a good thing survive, the bad mutations die
[23:50] <Aridd> It's not random, in the sense that it is indeed pre-determined. But it *is* random in the sense that it has no ultimate purpose, and that it's not obeying a design pre-ordained by some form of consciousness.
[23:51] <Ben> If it is pre-determined, it cannot be random. What determined evolution to have no ultimate purpose?
[23:52] <BramP[away]> does this discussion have an ultimate purpose?
[23:56] <Ben> on the contrary, Adrien. If there was a starting point, and something did start the chain of events, then there has to be something, according to determinism, that determined that first cause. But then it wouldn't be a first cause anymore.
[23:57] <Ben> That no one can answer the question doesn't mean that it's not a flaw in the theory
[23:57] <BramP[away]> any consequence must have a cause, each cause was a consequence of some other cause.. that's impossible... although with this logic, numbers can't exist either... because for each number there is a number that's smaller
[23:57] <BramP[away]> so god is a worm and there are no numbers
[00:06] <Ben> Determinism is about causes. One event causes another and so
on. For an event to occur, it must be caused. Therefore, for that eternal
loop to occur, that loop must have been caused by something *outside* the
loop
[00:07] <Aridd> Not if the loop is all-encompassing.
[00:07] <BramP[away]> but if something is caused by something outside the
loop, it is part of the loop
[00:07] <BramP[away]> so not outside
[00:07] <Ben> Adrien: then that loop is God ;)
[00:07] <Aridd> If you posit eternity, you don't absolutely need to posit a "first cause".
[00:07] <BramP[away]> god is not a loop, it's a worm.
[00:07] <Aridd> Whoah, Ben! How so?
[00:08] <Aridd> <BramP[away]> god is not a loop, it's a worm <= That needs quoting. <G>
[00:08] <BramP[away]> without context it might upset people :P
[00:08] <Ben> Not caused, always present, all-encompassing, all-knowing (in a way)... that sounds like a definition of a god
[00:09] <Ben> (seems like we're going to talk about God anyway <G>)
[00:09] <BramP[away]> I am not all-encompassing, all-knowing, but I am a god anyway
[00:09] <BramP[away]> I defy the definition!
[00:09] <BramP[away]> I defy to be defined
[00:10] <Aridd> But "God" in that sense could just be a label stuck on somehing beyond our comprehension: eternity without a "first" cause.
[00:10] <BramP[away]> philosophy is beyond my comprehension... *sticks a label 'god' on Ben's forehead*
[00:12] <Aridd> Even philosophers need entertainment. Otherwise, Ben, you wouldn't have joined FF. <G>
[00:12] <BramP[away]> Ben entertains himself by discussing philosophy in the chat at midnight
[00:12] <BramP[away]> posts are just to prevent us from kicking him out
[00:33] * BramP[away] is still away, but away reason changed (was away: Sleeping, duration: 3hrs 20mins 1sec; new reason: Really sleeping)
[00:34] <Ben> Determinism works with both theories, although first cause implies a godlike being. Deteminism doesn't want that, so we'll go to the eternal loop: an all-encompassing loop of causality that causes itself. Whether conscious or not, it causes itself.
[00:34] <BramP[away]> I am really going now, I need to get up early <G>
[00:34] <Ben> bye Bram!
[00:34] <Ben> I'm still just thinking out loud, you know ;)
[00:34] <Merijn> I've not even tried to read all this ;p
[00:35] <Ben> but what created the loop?
[00:35] <BramP[away]> a worm
[00:35] <Aridd> It created itself. It's a loop.
[00:35] <BramP[away]> although worms create holes... so it would be a loophole
